Currently in the process of marking up the evidence files (orange segments are annotated with my own comments) so it’ll be easier to skip through them later to relocate important bits.. Bit of a trial and error, still, but it’s probably the easiest approach to tackling the mountain.

what iq do you think they had?

vanesacristiana:

thedragonrampant:

sweet-killers:

Range from 120-130+ . 

I do not know. I just presume.

If Dylan truly was a gifted child, as I propose in one of my writings, it’s entirely possible for his IQ to have fallen way above the 130+ region. Whether or not that IQ would actually have shown itself in things like school assignments is yet another question in its entirety. One quote from his mother makes me think that he had a mind he could set to anything he did, but I don’t think he’d feel challenged or comfortable enough to showcase that intelligence in school.. “When Dylan was very young, he would dump five or six puzzle into a pile, so he would have the thrill of working on them all at the same time. He liked mazes; he liked word searches. He played chess with Tom. He was just a delight."  It is very common for a gifted child to start underachieving and not showing their real potential in classes, especially in their teenage years. Existential angst and the overwhelming feeling of being ‘different’ from the majority will do that to you. The Dylan we see in his journal — the complicated, puzzling Dylan — provides a far better image of his intelligence than any of his schoolwork ever did.

Eric, I think, was not quite in that same mindset as Dylan was. He was a decent student and a hard worker, though, and didn’t underachieve the way I feel Dylan sometimes did. Yet, some of the things he ponders in his writings aren’t the standard run-of-the-mill thoughts for someone his age either.. so, yes, the 120-130+ range might work for him. I think that he could keep up pace with Dylan to some extent, but would eventually fall short of being 100% on the same level as him. I think that Dylan’s feeling of separation from humanity was something even Eric couldn’t disprove to him. Eric understood some of Dylan’s mind better than most other peers would have been able to, I’m sure, but to say that he was in the same range intelligence-wise? Nope.

I intented to make a post about their IQ’s, if i base on intelligence test(I’ve taken the european standard one and I achieve 145 and I was shocked because I did not expect, I did it in the love of laziness). There are many types of intelligence, I cannot come up with an exact conclusion. If I base on their writings, yes Dylan took things at a higher level than average and the fact that he was ”gifted” and did equations at 3 . But iq test are piece of cake, seriously, I am sure both of them would have gotten a higher score(If I got 145=) )

Mhm, and IQ-tests are highly problematic measuring tools to begin with. (I won’t even get into how the measurement of intelligence itself is messed-up in the tests..) The IQ number isn’t a constant factor, but changes depending on how you feel and what’s going on in your life.. Things like depression, for instance, can have a very negative impact on the way you perform during the test. You’d ideally have to take it during a calm moment in your life where your emotions are pretty level and your thoughts aren’t on something that concerns or occupies you. I’m not sure how well the boys would’ve done with an IQ-test during the last year of their lives, although I do suspect that their regular scores at another time would’ve been close to what we’ve been saying. =)

(Don’t mind me, haha.. Just adding my own thoughts to an interesting subject. ;))

what iq do you think they had?

sweet-killers:

Range from 120-130+ . 

I do not know. I just presume.

If Dylan truly was a gifted child, as I propose in one of my writings, it’s entirely possible for his IQ to have fallen way above the 130+ region. Whether or not that IQ would actually have shown itself in things like school assignments is yet another question in its entirety. One quote from his mother makes me think that he had a mind he could set to anything he did, but I don’t think he’d feel challenged or comfortable enough to showcase that intelligence in school.. “When Dylan was very young, he would dump five or six puzzle into a pile, so he would have the thrill of working on them all at the same time. He liked mazes; he liked word searches. He played chess with Tom. He was just a delight."  It is very common for a gifted child to start underachieving and not showing their real potential in classes, especially in their teenage years. Existential angst and the overwhelming feeling of being ‘different’ from the majority will do that to you. The Dylan we see in his journal – the complicated, puzzling Dylan – provides a far better image of his intelligence than any of his schoolwork ever did.

Eric, I think, was not quite in that same mindset as Dylan was. He was a decent student and a hard worker, though, and didn’t underachieve the way I feel Dylan sometimes did. Yet, some of the things he ponders in his writings aren’t the standard run-of-the-mill thoughts for someone his age either.. so, yes, the 120-130+ range might work for him. I think that he could keep up pace with Dylan to some extent, but would eventually fall short of being 100% on the same level as him. I think that Dylan’s feeling of separation from humanity was something even Eric couldn’t disprove to him. Eric understood some of Dylan’s mind better than most other peers would have been able to, I’m sure, but to say that he was in the same range intelligence-wise? Nope.

…My friend Don, the Lutheran pastor who had to leave his job after doing Dylan Klebold’s funeral. Dylan Klebold was one of the Columbine shooters, and Don had the gall to think that the promises given to Dylan by God at his baptism were more powerful than the acts of evil he committed.

It helps me to think about Don because I realize that he wasn’t saying what Dylan Klebold did was ok. He was defiantly proclaiming that evil is simply not more powerful than good, and that there really is a light that shines in the darkness and that the darkness cannot, will not, shall not overcome it

Nadia Bolz-Weber (via ernhole)

I am 3000+ words in on ‘Building Reb’ and I think I’m only halfway done at best? It’s a hell of a lot more work than I’d anticipated thanks to the way the evidence suddenly tied together to form new connections. I can’t foresee myself editing anything out in the future (yay for structure?) but with one of the basement tapes and the suicide left to deconstruct and half the journal left to tie in with the existing pattern.. anything could happen.

Basically, this is a perfect illustration of what goes on behind the scenes of this blog when I’m quieter for a while. =) I sometimes get my ass in trouble with bigger projects like this one!

Tiny technical update..Figured out a non-autoplay music playlist in case you feel like hearing a rough selection of what plays here when I write stuff for this blog. =) You can find the full list of included songs through a link in my sidebar.

They wanted to die in a shoot out against the police right? So do you think that they were disappointed that it didn’t happen? And what do you think they thought about the police for not even coming in? I bet even they thought it was wrong of them haha.

Yup, that was included in at least one of the original plans. I think Eric in particular was counting on this possibility. =) I also think that the police shoot-out was the more likely scenario for them in Plan A (the bombs going off, the boys being outside the school shooting survivors/people fleeing the scene, cops arriving, etc) than it was in Plan B where they were holed up inside the school. The boys must’ve known that venturing into the school would diminish the possibility of dying through any other means than their own hands – and I suspect that the control of that situation was what appealed to both of them for different reasons, too. I don’t really think there was disappointment, because I feel the motivation for the shoot-out wasn’t totally suicide-based in the first place. It seemed to be more about hurting law enforcement, you know?

I think they were flailing mildly when they hauled ass back to the library and realised they were completely and utterly surrounded and that they believed it was only a matter of time before someone would burst through the door. In hindsight, sure, we know that the cops would take the long way round (WHY JEFFCO WHY) and not enter the library in the most obvious way (THROUGH THE DOOR THAT WAS RIGHT THERE HELLO) and generally take a very fucking long time to do anything at all (YOUR INCOMPETENCE IS SHOWING) but the boys didn’t know any such things and so it must’ve appeared to them that they were on the verge of getting ambushed or something. The library location led almost straight to the outside, remember, and they knew the door was accessible..

But, really, when you think about it, what was left for them? Sit there for hours and wait them out? Try to get access to other classrooms? Twiddle their thumbs and wait for JeffCo to grow a pair? (I’m sorry, my vitriol against JeffCo is just never-ending..) I don’t think either of them wanted to wait for the confrontation and the risks that’d bring with it.. I don’t think they wanted to spend more seconds drawing breath.. and I think that they knew deep down inside that the method of their death would always, always be of their own choosing.

‘that’s why I acted like I did at After prom’ – the sentence from Eric’s message to Kristi in her yearbook. Do you know what exactly did he mean? What Eric did at after prom? I know its hard for you to be up-to-date now, but it would be really, reeaaally helpful to have some information about it ;)

Hm, I honestly don’t know. We’re talking ‘98, right? The timeframe doesn’t match for ’99 due to a number of reasons and Kristi’s statements about that after-prom are really unremarkable overall. =)

My best guess would be that Eric’s attached statement of self-awareness and the comment “have you ever watched, actually watched someone dance?” have something to do with how he acted at after-prom! I wouldn’t put it past Eric to ridicule the dancing crowd or refuse to dance or something. 😉 Maybe Kristi called him out on it or argued with him about it and so he explained his reasonings in her yearbook?

I don’t think it’s related to the incident with Dan Lab punching Eric in the face and Kristi finding out about it late ’98, though, so that’s the only thing I’d really discount as a possibility. It’s a pity Kristi didn’t save all the notes from Eric – we might’ve been able to figure something out through those.

Its interesting what you say about the trust thing, I highly agree. They had a deeply intimate amount of trust between them and I think they were able to keep the secret for so long cuz even tho Eric was a braggart his will was so strong and Dylan didn’t let people get close enough to him to get that personal or intimate as to tell someone that. He had a secret world. Also could you tell me when they tried to rope friends in?! :O I didn’t know that!! I’m sort of new

Mhm, I think at least half of us wish we had a friendship like that! =)

I think that they were able to keep the secret through nothing short of a miracle. Both boys were leaking information all over the place and they weren’t exactly the most cautious getting some stuff for NBK in order.. It’s astounding that nobody caught on enough to be able to connect the dots. Their loyalty to each other helped keep the secret to the exclusion of everyone else.

Hm, I recall that Eric spoke about the tentative plans with Chris Morris at the very least.. and I think Dylan pondered going NBK with Zach Heckler back when Eric wasn’t in the picture so clearly yet.. and I recall that there were other instances in conversation with friends that were clearly about NBK in hindsight. I think that all of those conversations with their friends were done in a joking manner, you know, testing the waters really carefully and seeing if anyone would be up to join in.. =) Perhaps the initial conversation between Dylan and Eric started off as a joke, too? I wouldn’t be surprised about that possibility at all.

do you think their friendship was destructive? i’m sure most columbiners would hate that thought, but it’s crossed my mind.

Hm, well, why would they hate the thought? I think it is the most realistic way to view their friendship, to be honest with you. It was as beautiful as it was destructive, and I think we need to acknowledge that the boys would have lived a very different life if they had never met and would perhaps even still be alive today.

Their friendship was a beautiful display of loyalty, trust and all the things you’d need in a really good friend. But it was also destructive. The boys fed off each other. They weren’t in the state of mind to help each other out of the mess they’d gotten themselves into, but they were in the state of mind to worsen the other considerably. It would have been better for everyone if they had never met, and yet some part of me is saying that their meeting and subsequent friendship was perfectly right. I think it’s one of those complicated conflicted things where your mind is telling you something else than your heart, you know?

i know that eric was aries but have u idea what is his rising star?=)

Not a clue – I don’t know his exact time of birth, so there’s no way for me to be sure. I’ve recently been talking about this subject in personal messages, though, and Scorpio as his rising sign clicked for me almost straight away when I read this description. Might be of interest?

eric seemed very very stubborn individual and his biggest illness was his extra-ultra-independence.

Haha, yeah, I think his stubbornness is one of his most defining traits. If something was black in his opinion, there was no way anyone else could get it to turn white or even grey. It’s an admirable thing as much as it is something you’d happily kick him in the shins for, right?

I think his biggest illness was that he had all this stuff going on inside his head and never learned how to handle it. He tried, oh yeah he tried, but his attempts to control what was going on backfired on him completely. He didn’t have the right tools with which he could actively combat his thoughts and emotions. He reached out to others to get the help he needed for it, though, so I would not call him independent in that respect.

I would, however, call him very individualistic. He wanted to be his own person, separate from all others, and he wanted to walk a road that not many others ever ventured down. He wanted to be different – to be more than your average human, perhaps, even. He craved the individuality and the separation from humanity that this would bring him. Eric never wanted to be a part of the flock of sheep. I think the very idea of it was anathema to him. It’s a form of independence for sure, though.. and I hope that it is what you meant!

Do you believe Susan and Eric would have made a good couple?

Yes, I do. I maintain quite firmly that it is a pity that Eric met her so late in his life. Eric was very courteous toward her and he seems to have genuinely liked her a lot. Susan, on her part.. I respect her very highly for the letter she wrote Eric after NBK, because it spoke of a fondness for Eric and the regret that she didn’t see what was going on in him at the time. I think she would’ve been good for him – her kindness radiated onto the page in that letter, and the degree of respect with which she spoke of him makes me believe that she could’ve been one of his turning points if they had met earlier. Whether it would have lasted or not is another question, and I am leaning toward ‘not’ eventually, but I definitely think they would’ve been a good match at the time.

There’s all those conspiracies about there being more shooters and not just the two boys that day. So that made me wonder…. Do you think if someone else or multiple others wanted to join, Eric and Dylan would’ve let them? More people, more destruction? :o (And let’s say that these people asked to join more towards the beginning, because I’m sure by the end they wouldn’t have wanted anyone else to join because they already planned NBK so precisely just for the two of them.)

Honestly.. hm.. I don’t know. I think there would be a certain degree of reluctance on their part, even though they tried to rope some of their friends into the plan back when it was still on very shaky ground. I think that adding more people to the act would also make the likelihood of getting caught so much greater, you know? Keeping a secret of that magnitude for so many months is not something everyone is capable of doing. The boys would’ve had to have a major degree of trust in anyone joining them, and I don’t know if there were any friends they mutually trusted enough for that to happen. (For example.. I think Dylan, at the very least, would’ve trusted Zach Heckler enough to include him in the plan if Zach was willing – but if Eric would’ve done the same and had the same degree of trust in Zach? I highly doubt it.)

One thing that makes Columbine so unique is the relationship the boys had with one another. It is rare to have that degree of friendship and trust throughout everything. Adding another person into the equation would alter the bond significantly, and make it far more likely that NBK would never even have happened the way it did..

Did they have any favorite books?

I only really know of Eric’s, because he saved a lot more of his essays and stuff than Dylan seems to have done.. (Thank the gods for Eric’s hoarding practices, right? ;))

Eric had some sci-fi authors listed as favourites (Lem and Crichton among them), spoke of Shakespeare (most notably The Tempest) with some degree of fondness, and had good things to say about Steinbeck’s work. The latter two were definitely school assignments, though, so I think that he may have appreciated them in the moment and then never gave them much of a second thought again. =)

If anyone remembers something Dylan said about favourite authors, please let me know! (I recall his movie/music likes and stuff, but authors completely elude me at the moment..)

Where was Eric’s brother during his senior year and NBK?? I’m guessing he was in college by then but was he even in CO?

Kevin studied at the University of Colorado in Boulder, CO, at the time of NBK. =)

who do you think were people that eric and dylan looked up to? didn’t eric admire nietzsche and his writing a lot?

Yup, Eric mentions both Nietzsche and Hobbes in his journal very briefly as philosophers he ‘loves’. It is not very surprising, either, considering the thoughts and ideas Eric himself fostered during the time he mentioned them.. Both of them were revolutionary thinkers whose heavy criticisms of society overlapped with Eric’s own. (I always wonder if he would have appreciated Rousseau, even though Rousseau criticised Hobbes on at least one occasion.. Every single damn time I read some of Rousseau’s stuff, I can’t help but think that Eric might’ve liked some of the general ideas presented by him.) Eric also showed appreciation of quite a few authors, including Shakespeare and Stanislaw Lem, but I don’t know if I would go as far as to say that he looked up to them. They informed his opinions, sure, but I don’t think Eric ever came close to putting anyone on a pedestal..

Dylan, hm.. I don’t recall at the moment if there was anyone he mentioned in particular that would come close to being someone he looked up to. Somehow, I feel that Dylan would refuse to look up to anyone. Dylan had quite a bit of arrogance going on, as one instance from diversion shows: “The teacher was informative, and the information was valuable, but I already knew almost all of what the teacher had to say.  She talked about influences, and how they affect us.  Family, friends, media, T.V., radio, almost everything around us is an influence.  I already knew this.  She pointed out that influences make us act differently.  I knew that too.” There is a part of me that simply refuses to believe that Dylan would be one of those people who’d put somebody else on a pedestal – he would be the more likely candidate for his own pedestal because he believed he had all the wisdom and knowledge already.

People always say Dylan was the more depressed and emotional one, but I kind of disagree jusssst a little haha. Or maybe I’m seeing it wrong. Also, Dylan seemed a bit more hopeful then Eric. Do you know what I mean?

Oh, you and me both on the disagreement concerning that assessment! 😉

I think Dylan was the more outwardly depressed of the duo. Dylan internalised a lot of his depression/feelings, allowing them to fester and take a hold of his mind, and the things he writes in his journal are exactly the things I’d expect from someone who knows most of his own state of mind like the back of his hand. He seems to have held out hope, in a sense, for something to get better – and I think eventually the general hope translated into a hope that the afterlife would be better than the current life he led. Dylan had quite a bit of self-awareness for someone so young, and while I think he struggled with his depression I think he also welcomed the fact that his feelings made him different from those around him. Dylan was very locked inside his own mind and thoughts, you know? He was someone who ‘lives from the head’, as so many gifted children do, and whose feelings rarely translate to physical action or indeed to anything deeper than a rational analysis of said feelings.

Eric.. He may have blustered about having self-awareness, but I disagree so strongly with him on that notion. Eric is the more emotional one of the duo for me, and he is the more volatile and surprising one because of it. He is the part of the dynamic whose feelings jump all over the place and translate to the physical with relative ease. However, Eric used the tight leash of control he had over his feelings to amplify what he wanted to use for NBK and to put the rest of his feelings in a box he could seal shut until the last seconds of his life. Eric denied himself every feeling that came close to depression, doubt, self-loathing, and hurt.. and he shouted his anger and hatred from the rooftops in the same breath because it was the safer outlet that wouldn’t confront him with himself. He externalised where Dylan internalised, which has led to so many people misinterpreting what was really going on with Eric. I currently see Eric as the more damaged one of the two, to be honest with you, and it’s surprising to me how many people ‘miss’ that part of him and see exactly what the boy wanted them to see.

If you could keep one of their belongings, what would it be?

For Eric, of course, it’d be his berserk I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that took off like crazy. =) It’s the only possession of his I can think about wanting to have dearly – and I am not altogether sure of the reason why.

For Dylan, it’d be the ring he always wore. I simply love the look of it – and I think it was a very personal thing to him because it was the only possession he didn’t remove from his body before death. I think that’d be a lovely thing to have.

What would your last words have been if one of them put a gun to your head?… Would you even try to beg?

Hell no, wouldn’t try to beg at all. That’s a very visceral reaction from me – my entire mind rebels against the notion of begging them for anything in that particular instance. A part of it is definitely about not giving them the satisfaction that I’d beg for my life, because that lends them a lot more power than I am willing to give them freely.

I don’t even know if I’d have any last words..? I think I’d only speak when I was asked a direct question the way they did with people like Val, you know? Of course I’d want to live, sure, and I think that I’d be royally pissed at them for wanting to decide over my life so I can’t see it end well on any occasion.. but I think there is also a calmer, more focused part of me that’d be accepting of whatever happened. I’ve stared into my own abyss long enough to know there’s nothing to fear in death itself – something I feel would surprise them if they ventured to ask.